wilkes

You continue to prove my point. Funny you mention businesses. Obamacare hasn't really affected them yet. Remember Obama extended the time they had to upgrade their policies while screwing individuals who could not afford the cost. When that happens millions will lose their coverage and doctors. They will not close but will cut expenses and raise prices to make up the difference.

pantera (view profile)	Posted 2:40 pm, 10/31/2014
Moving101 cars damage air quality way more than coal power plants. How would you feel if we no longer was allowed to use oil in America and you had to drive a horse and buggy?

I don't know, but, I suspect that cars are probably one of, if not the main, air polluter. But why do you think that the only alternative is to take many steps backwards to the days of horses and buggies. Are we not seeing more and more automobiles being produced, sold, and driven that don't do as much damage to the air? The more accepting people are of these new autos and the fewer old ones there are to choose from, the less damage from polluters there will be. I just don't see why you think it's either what we already have that is not working, or nothing at all (or a return to a really old way)?

Why are you so afraid of a world without oil dependence?

skeptic (view profile)	Posted 2:32 pm, 10/31/2014
and you can keep your, it's the right thing to do bullcrap. Tell that to all the folks losing jobs.

You seem to ignore that it was the insurance companies that cancelled those policies...not Obama. It's not like they had no other option. They could have upgraded those policies to meet the criteria required by the ACA. But then, people would have noticed exactly what they weren't getting to start with and how much more those things now will cost them. Also, it gave the insurance companies a great way to make Obama out to be a liar. All more political tooling.

People aren't losing jobs solely because of the ACA. Take any case you want to talk about and each one had other reasons for lay-offs, downsizing, etc. No profitable business is going to throw in the towel just because there's an increase in one of their expenses. They are going to look for ways to implement it and make it work. It's no different than increases in any other material or service expense that any business encounters. Another political tool.

Obama hates the rich and is trying to punish them anyway he can, but is making the middle class suffer with his stupidity!!!

Moving101 said:
I look at it like this. God has selected me/you to help out someone else less fortunate. Instead of seeing it as an inconvenience, we should look at it as an opportunity to make someone else's life better...and, make God happy that we accepted the challenge.

But, to each his own.

Nope, not really we are forced at gunpoint (try not paying your taxes openly and at gunpoint you go to jail) to keep up dead beats thugs wannabes illegals and people who are capable of working. And even illegals who do work. See them shiny wheels lately? Oh wait Bill took care of that shipping jobs to Asia to benefit Arkansas based Wal Mart (coincidence as they grew their home was Arkansas and so was the Clintons) And now prez obola will heighten the misery of blacks when amnesty goes through talk about not finding a job then. You're pathetic socialist you hate the poor ideologue is beginning to fall apart. Welfare scum are far better off than working people look how fat my money has made them and they are better off than over 90% of the world and you are still buying the Democrat nonsense because you are a team player even when it is the losing theory. 50 yrs ago the great society from the 60's how's that going?

skeptic (view profile)	Posted 2:28 pm, 10/31/2014
Hey. Keep doing what your doing. Keep losing working class voters. Wait. I just had an epiphany. Your losing American voters so you bring in illegals to take there place and try to use the courts to block voter ID cards.

Don't be fooled by a handful of articles that you select to read that focuses on how one party is losing voters. The reality is, both teams have and will continue to lose voters for one reason or the other. Voters on both sides are fed up and you need not look any further than voter turnout reports to know many folks have given up and/or don't see the point in wasting their time when both parties have become so full of tish they can't be believed or trusted. The ones that do hang in there are either party loyalists, or, those that bounce back and forth from party to party trying to make a statement that they are mad and want an immediate and noticeable fix...which ain't possible...from either side.

As for illegals being "brought in" to take their place, well, you know that game could be played by either side. Both sides court certain groups of voters. Nothing new there. Many Hispanics are Catholic and firmly against abortion , gay rights, etc. and vote their religious beliefs. The right could come up with comprehensive immigration reform that would solve the problem and win them all over to their side just as easily as the Dems can. Maybe easier for the right since they have the majority in the House and seem confident they will soon have the majority in the Senate. If they do, let's just see what the Pubs do about immigration, abortion, gay rights, ISIS, and all the other hot button issues their followers are sure they can better legislate for. I'm betting nothing will change except the can being kicked a little farther down the road.

Michelle will take your high fructose corn syrup too.

And I hope you don't think coal is the only thing obama and Hagan are going after. He's already started on wood stoves. Since we're reaching. How long do you think it will be before he comes after everyone's kerosene heaters and furnaces.

So you support your argument by pointing out other things that are just as bad. That's reaching.

skeptic (view profile)	Posted 2:11 pm, 10/31/2014
I'm glad it save you money but it's not my place to make up your price cut.

Do you shop at Walmark? If so, then the price you pay makes up for all the shoplifters.

Do you have homeowners insurance? if so, then you make up for people with house on the coast that get ripped apart by hurricanes.

Do you pay income taxes? If so, then you make up for people that work for cash and lie about their income and pay little to no income taxes, yet they still drive on our public roads and send their kids to our public schools.

There are a million instances where each one of us pay for something that others don't pay their fair share for. Some of it really pisses us off for one reason or another, but, to begrudge someone medical care because you might have to kick in a little more just shouldn't be one of them in my opinion. I had health insurance for over 40 years and rarely used it. The last several years I had it, my premiums were through the roof. All that time, others were benefiting from it. Then a few years back I had to give it up because the premiums got so high it priced me out of the market. I have no shame in knowing that I now qualify for a better rate, even if some others have to pay more. The formulas say those that are having to pay more can afford it and I can't. But we are all entitled to medical care if/when we need it. Seems reasonable to me.

I look at it like this. God has selected me/you to help out someone else less fortunate. Instead of seeing it as an inconvenience, we should look at it as an opportunity to make someone else's life better...and, make God happy that we accepted the challenge.

But, to each his own.

Good point pantera. It's the whole do what's right as long as it don't affect me argument.

Moving I'm telling you man. We agree more than you think on this. Your entire 2nd paragraph is why I started this thread. Of all wealth created under Obama 95% has went to the richest 1%. While lower class has gotten increases as well. The middle class has gotten screwed. Who is representing me?

Moving101 cars damage air quality way more than coal power plants. How would you feel if we no longer was allowed to use oil in America and you had to drive a horse and buggy?

skeptics: "...Good points on immigration. But right now we can't afford more people to take jobs. We don't have enough to go around. I don't mind as much paying taxes to help struggling Americans. I actually give above my taxes in charity. But to let people in here illegally that will work for $7.25/hr. Why would business' pay more? Plus who do you think will pay for their government benefits. You and me, he working class..."

What is more concerning than "illegals" that will work for $7.25/hr. is, legals, of all colors and nationalities that are working for min. wage. There is far more of them than there are illegals that are working for min. wage. If everyone working for min. wage would protest and quit showing up for work, that would get the employers' attention. Minimum wage workers have been losing ground since the 60's. Meanwhile corporations have increased their profit margins by leaps and bounds, all the while cutting benefits...like health insurance and a 40 hour work week. There's no wonder that some people have decided to hail with working and gone to living off the government teat when they can make more and live better by not working. Where's the incentive? To hail with pride and dignity if you are hungry and homeless. An increased min. wage would also decrease the number of people that would qualify for government assistance programs. Which should tickle people pink if they are mad because so many qualify for assistance.

I get it that there are cases where illegal immigrants are responsible for taking jobs that legal citizens should be able to work, and, that is one factor that plays into keeping the min. wage beat down. But, in all due honesty, it is a very small part of the overall problem which is greedy employers and people just crazy enough to go along with it. The term illegal immigrants is just another political tool used to make a certain group of voters mad at some candidates and lean towards others and deflect away from the obvious ones that are truly responsible for keeping the min. wage well below where it should be to keep up with the rising cost of EVERYTHING else.

and you can keep your, it's the right thing to do bullcrap. Tell that to all the folks losing jobs.

Hey. Keep doing what your doing. Keep losing working class voters. Wait. I just had an epiphany. Your losing American voters so you bring in illegals to take there place and try to use the courts to block voter ID cards.

Thanks moving, you always get to the heart of what matters.

skeptic: "...You said everything is going up but not just because of power bills, but that is a factor. You said things were going up for several reasons and only some of those are Obama/hagans fault. Closing of power plants due to the EPA has caused the loss of working class jobs and higher power bills that's undisputable. Obama said that power bills would skyrocket. People have lost jobs from the workers in the mines to the truck drivers carrying he coal to the ship hands who transport it to the small business owner who all these workers supported..."


There's no way around the fact that rules and regulations are a necessary evil. They cost more money to implement. This causes old, outdated but comfortable ways of doing things to give way to new, improved ways. One has to ask one simple question though to really understand the need for EPA oversight. WHY? Why did this new rule come into effect? The answer lies between one of two ideas. Either people were harmed/killed before the law was enacted, or, a better mousetrap was invented. Sometimes both apply. The EPA is there to protect our air, water, and soil. All things that everyone that wants to live needs. We have to have air to breath. We have to have water to stay alive. We have to have soil to grow food in. Sure we can live some amount of time with dirty, contaminate air/water/soil, but, not as long, or as healthy as we can with the clean stuff. It is very short sighted to only be concerned with the here and now and not consider how our actions today will influence our lives and the lives of future generations.

The power plants that have closed are outdated; were inefficient, often costing more to operate than the income they produced. Not to mention, major polluters. Are you saying they should keep on keeping on under the circumstances just because the people that worked there would lose their jobs? For every one that closed, something else is replacing them to make up for the energy they provided. Those that lost jobs can retrain and move into that new field of energy production. But we can't keep doing the same thing hat has stopped working for the sake of job retention at that particular facility. Which goes back to the examples of outside toilets and 8 track tape players. As new, improved means of producing/harnessing energy become available, we have to have the good sense to use them and cut our ties with the old, outdated ways of the past. People just have to use their heads and retrain to fit into the new jobs.

As for the higher cost of new methods, as more and more people get on board with the new methods, prices will decrease. All new prototypes tend to cost more until the product hits mass production.

I'm glad it save you money but it's not my place to make up your price cut.

skeptic (view profile)

Posted 7:49 am, 10/28/2014

Moving on obamacare you said the poor should get free healthcare. I never said they shouldn't. I think anything the government mandates on a citizen should be paid for by the government period. The rich may not like to pay extra but can afford to. So you seem to agree this law affects the middle class more. The middle class cannot afford extra money right now. People in the middle class know that.

You don't seem to realize how many people in the middle class will also benefit from Obamacare. It saved me about $800/mth in premiums. I assure you I am not the only middle class person that it has helped. I understand there are some in the middle class that were adversely affected...higher premiums and higher deductibles...initially. But in the long run, when those people get older, they will pay must less than they would have under the old outdated system that priced many people out of the market when they reached 50+, or, had pre-existing conditions that threatened them losing coverage completely. By the time you factor that in, they won't be paying more. And let's not forget those that could afford insurance but simply chose not to get it because they were more interested in spending money on the frills that weren't really needed...18 pr. of high dollar shoes, a dozen pair of high dollar jeans, boats, 4 wheelers, etc. Then if/when they had a medical emergency, they went straight to DSS looking for assistance, which the rest of us paid for.

This law should affect everyone. Many will get insurance they desperately need. Some for free or greatly reduced. Some a bit higher now, but will save them money later on in life. Those trying to beat the odds and game the system will now have to take responsibility for themselves/their dependents. And with some tweaks, the rich will be made to ante up more in taxes because they can afford it.